Debunking the Autopilot Myth
Michael J. Fleming is the founder and president of Sales Tax and More, a full-service consulting and solutions firm with a passion for state tax. He is one of the country's leading authorities on sales tax issues such as consulting and research, registrations, returns, nexus, drop-shipping, eCommerce, and service providers.
Michael is a renowned writer and speaker, and he regularly presents on webinars. He is also the host of the Sales Tax and More Podcast, where he shares his wisdom and learnings with his audience in order to help them navigate the tricky world of taxes.
In this episode…
Mike Fleming and Ellie Moffat sit down with STM’s VP of Client Acquisition and Retention, Brenda Currey, to talk about debunking the autopilot myth.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
The critical issues affecting the sales tax world.
The pitfall of software companies and their autopilot programs.
How businesses are responding to these arising issues and what the software companies are telling their customers.
What to do if you find yourself negatively impacted by these autopilot programs.
Connect with Michael
Episode Transcript - Audio Version
[00:00:00] Welcome to Sales Tax and More, your go to resource for all things state tax related. Now, here is your host, Michael Fleming.
Hello, everyone. Mike Fleming here, founder of Sales Tax and More, and today's co host of the Sales Tax and More podcast, where we talk about everybody's favorite topic, which is of course, sales tax. And today we're going to do, something a little bit different. We're going to interview the head of our, sales efforts.
It's, Brenda Currey. Her actual title is Vice President of Client Acquisition and Retention. And she and our team are out on the front lines. So, definitely wanted to get a different perspective on this. But before we get
[00:01:00] started, let me introduce you to my co host, Ellie Moffat.
Hey everyone. Great to be here. I'm really excited to have Brenda on today's podcast. And I'm going to do a quick introduction for our company Sales Tax and More. Sales Tax and More as a full service consulting and solutions firm. We have a really great team here of experienced tax professionals who are very dedicated to fulfilling any of your state tax or related needs.
So we do a lot of sales tax returns, sales tax registrations, consultations, research, and like our name states more. So if you like this podcast, if you'd like to reach out to us, please subscribe and like, and you can find our contact information in the show notes or at the end of this episode and Mike, why don't you jump right in here?
Okay. So as, as we said, Brenda, you and your team are out there on the front lines. So is there something that, that you're seeing, that people need to be aware of? Is, is there one thing that keeps coming up over and over
[00:02:00] more than any other issues out there right now? Yeah, so thank you. First, thank you for having me today.
I'm excited to dive in some of these into some of these critical issues that have been popping up. Mike, currently what we're seeing a lot of companies, particularly those relying on software for their filings running into very, very costly errors. So not only missing returns, but worse, we're seeing tax collected that isn't being remitted. So recently we've encountered issues with local tax filings in Colorado so many software companies are collecting at the state and local level but they're only remitting the taxes on the state return.
So the misconception is that the software provider is quote unquote handling the returns and come to find out. Once we start onboarding, we've discovered that all of the taxes collected in the local jurisdictions have not been remitted. And for some companies coming in, it's hundreds of thousands of dollars.
And so it's important that you either have someone staying on top of this, or that you have a
[00:03:00] provider who is offering real support to catch these discrepancies before they become issues. At the end of the day, software is a fantastic tool. You know, Mike says it's a necessary evil, but we have to remember that it does hinge on how well it's being managed and it's being monitored.
Sales tax compliance relies heavily on human oversight. It's not on autopilot. Like they say.
And it's a problem that's flying under the radar for years and organizations aren't catching it for several years, meaning they run into hundreds of thousands of dollars in unreported tax revenue. Serious issue with potentially massive financial repercussions. That's what we're seeing lately. All right.
So yeah, we we've talked about this before. But, how did, how do people respond? What, why do you think this is happening? How is this impacting them? What, what are they saying the software companies are saying? So, honestly, the reaction I've seen is pretty consistent. First, there's shock and disbelief
[00:04:00] and then frustration and anger. And I think once they realize that there's no support from the software provider, they've then shift their focus into how we're going to fix the situation.
And unfortunately, they end up shouldering most of the cleanup and all penalty and interest. So that's kind of when they come to us and we will then triage what we call triage. We coined the term triage. Their account and see what's going on and help them to come up with a plan to get it handled.
All right, so you specifically mentioned Colorado, but it's not just Colorado, it's all of the home rule states, and even other states. I mean, I saw a big issue the other day, in Virginia, and, you know, The software company got this company registered, and they, were collecting the tax, but when the person signed themselves or configured the software, they put in the wrong type of software.
So they put in consumers use tax rather than out of state use tax. And the company, the
[00:05:00] software company was filing all sorts of 0 use tax returns, which they didn't need to be. And this went on for years. I think there was two or three years of tax collected, not remitted and this was the State of Virginia.
So, it's not just the states that you're talking about now. You mentioned that I call the software companies necessary evils, and I hate defending these companies sometimes. But there is a part that the, that our clients or future clients or prospective clients . In the fine print out there.
It tells you these things and you know, why is someone not realizing that? Hey, we got a bunch of tax money here that we think should be going to the states and it's building up and building up. So the clients do have a part to play, but I think that it's because of the marketing. That, these software
[00:06:00] companies use that, Hey, just sign up with us.
And you don't ever have to worry about anything ever again. I think that that is, is lulling people into a false sense of security. Ellie, you're our marketing expert here. What, what do you think of, you know, the marketing departments of these software companies, or salespeople telling people, Hey, just sign up with us and don't forget everything.
Do you think that's a, an effective marketing message? Well, I think I think really what I see within our own company and how this marketing message really affects people kind of, it really gives me a little bit more of a clear picture than just if I was looking purely from a marketing background. I think it is really dangerous to lead people down a path.
That's not necessarily true. I think with all marketing things out there, especially today, you really need to understand a product and understand, what they are selling you and how, and how it's going to make your life better,
[00:07:00] and the pitfalls of that as well. And it just so happens in the sales tax world with these software companies, you know, they're saying.
Relax, take it easy. We've got this sit back and that's just, it's just not the case. And it has really huge consequences for people, unfortunately. And that's what Brenda is on the front line seeing. That's what we're talking about in meetings all the time. And I do think it's important, you know, with any marketing out there that you really understand what you're looking at.
And, and especially when it comes to something like sales tax, it's going to affect your whole business. It's going to in fact, affect your team members. It's going to have just such a large impact in so many ways. So I don't know if that was clear or not, but. That's kind of where I'm sitting. Yeah.
And unfortunately I, I got it, you know, I'm a big believer in, in under promise and over deliver. Brenda, it sounds like from some of our offline
[00:08:00] conversations that some of these, you know, former software customers are thinking the other way around, they were over promised and under delivered. Would you agree with that statement?
You want to expand on it? Yeah, absolutely. Just about every single company that I talked to believes that it's being handled. In other words, they don't have anyone overseeing it. They have this false idea that these returns are just handling themselves. Someone's keeping an eye on them and that it's again.
I I hate to constantly use this word. But I hear it over and over autopilot and there's just no such thing Yeah, so I I guess the moral of the story here is is if you are doing business with the software companies just make sure you're engaged. Make sure that you're double checking because, you know, if a problem does pop up, you're on top of it, and instead of it lasting for, you know, two, three, four years, you're catching it in its infancy.
[00:09:00] And problems are a lot easier to correct, a lot less costly when you're catching something at the beginning, rather than two, three years later. So, I know that, you know, we, we say that these software companies are necessary evils. A lot of companies, are still doing business with the software company who created their problem because they still need them for the calculation.
They still need them for the software piece. But they're moving their services away. However, you, you were telling me about this one company that is so upset. They're not even keeping them for the, for the software piece anymore. They're looking for a new software provider or creating their own, in house.
You, can you tell us a little bit more about that company? Yeah, absolutely. There's more than one company. Some of the larger companies are trying to find ways around, even use it, utilizing the software and wanting to create their own tax
[00:10:00] engine, within their own ERP system. So we are seeing that as well.
Yeah, I guess, that's exasperated. If you know, you end up paying, you know, a million dollars or more in back tax penalty and interest due to an error and the software company is saying, I'm so sorry. You know, you should have been watching. This is not our fault. And you're on the hook for all that penalty and interest.
I guess that could to breed some, pretty bad feelings there and want to move totally away. So I, I know that one of the companies that we're, we're working with called CereTax. And, they, are currently building out a lot of integrations with other platforms. But, they're a company that concentrates solely on the software. So number one, their technology is up to date where a lot of these other companies, their
technology is 10 years old or, or more, which is ancient in the technology
[00:11:00] world. So CereTax, definitely has all of the newest technology out there. And from the companies that are able to use them at this point, I'm hearing they love the solution. You, you hear anything along those lines?
Yes, absolutely. All right. You know, and as, as, CereTax, gets more integrations out there, I think they're going to be a much better solution for a lot more companies out there. So rather than taking this in house, as we have a number of clients, asking us to assist them, I think that there'll be other options out there, you know, companies that concentrate, on the software
rather than trying to be all things to all people and just not being able to do it. So, anything else, that, that you're seeing out there? Yeah. So actually, a lot of eCommerce companies are coming to us recently where they have accidentally started collecting tax without realizing it. So the amounts were piling up
[00:12:00] tens of thousands, a few cases that we brought in one over $200, 000.
What's happening is when they're setting up their Shopify account, somehow they are turning the tax collection on in all the states and not realizing it. And so then we onboard them and notice as we're onboarding them that they've collected all this tax. So seeing a lot of that lately. So just a warning to eCommerce sellers, just to make sure that they're not collecting the tax, if they're not registered and ready to, to be able to remit these taxes.
Yeah, and that's a, that's a big thing. Tax collected, not remitted, often referred to as the cardinal sin of sales tax. Now, it's the one area that where people actually can go to jail, but it's got to have some intent to it in order to get to jail. But, it still comes with, not only the civil penalties.
But criminal penalties, which can be 50 percent or more, just because you made a mistake and had the tax, accidentally turned on, it builds up over time.
[00:13:00] So, that's, that's, that's a huge issue. And nowadays, with technology, it's so easy to inadvertently turn something on, and not realize it, just as, as well as turn something off.
I think that you and I were speaking and, we, We've seen a number of companies, accidentally do that, or when they're adding new products, excluding it from the way their other products are being taxed. So, technology, double edged sword, you know, it's, it offers a lot, a lot of benefits, but you got to be careful using it because it does make things so easy to make mistakes.
Would you, would you agree with that? Yeah, absolutely. And what do these people feel? How are they feeling when they see that, they're, they've got all this tax collected and it's not remitted? Well, ultimately shocked. And then, you know, kind of in a panic because most of these companies are on the smaller side and they've spent the
[00:14:00] money.
So now we have to come up with a way for them to, either follow VDAs. Get into payment plans and try and get these taxes remitted. And so for many companies, it's, it's a, it's a huge burden. Yeah. And that sort of ties into the previous issues you're talking about. These companies do have some sort of responsibility.
I mean, you can't just take all the money that a company is sending you. You got to look at where it's coming from. Someone's got to be balancing the books there. But you're right. These are smaller companies and, money comes in. Yeah. It's yours to spend. They're not, they didn't turn the tax on in their minds.
So yeah, it's really easy to get yourself into one of these, pickles. So, be engaged, I think is the moral of, of today's, podcast. And, if you want to be less engaged, make sure that you're actually working with someone who's more proactive. Rather than not even, should I say reactive? I mean, some of
[00:15:00] these companies, don't let you know anything.
You figure it out on your own when the state's knocking on your door or sending you a demand letter or, you know, auditing you or, or something along those lines. So, that's where the commercial part comes in here. We, we believe we're a little bit more proactive, than, the software companies out there.
I mean, you do get, a dedicated, staff accountant who's gonna be filing your returns. And I, and I think that's one of the reasons that these software companies have so many problems. You don't have a dedicated person. I mean, you got someone doing all of the Florida returns, someone doing all the Texas returns, no one is looking at the company as a whole.
And I think that just creates a lot of situations where things can fall through the cracks. So that's my two cents. Anything else you want to add in, Brenda? No, but just to your point, we do see that. So, there, you know, there's no
[00:16:00] service, there's no support, they're not able to get any of their questions answered, so I'm seeing a lot of software companies clients That are having to come to us because they can't get any kind of support or any kind of answers.
And so I think that is something else as well that that is lacking. When you're using software for services, there, there's a chat ticket and it's two weeks before you hear anything. So yeah, absolutely. A firm like ours, you know, you can reach out to your staff account anytime. We're very responsive and, yeah, it's, it's a much more hands on service.
You know, you said something there a minute ago. There's not support and we've been talking about companies for the most part. But I've heard that, there, there are problems even with their CPA programs. You know, number one going back to the marketing, I can't stand the marketing that you too can be a sales tax expert to sign up for our program.
You know, it takes years to learn this stuff. There's [00:17:00] usually not any courses or anything else, that are going to, to get you up to speed very quickly. And now you, you've given these accountants a false sense of confidence and going out and getting their clients into all sorts of problems. Are we seeing any of that?
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so we've talked about this in previous podcasts, but sometimes you got to ask How long have you been doing multi state tax returns? Because if someone's brand new to this, they may be a great accountant. But if they're relying on one of these software companies. We've seen too many times where the software companies just don't provide the support and if you're relying on them and they're relying on the software company.
That just sets you up for a lot of problems. So, software companies are great at doing software where they start stubbing their toes is when it comes to the service part.
[00:18:00] So, you just got to be aware of what the limitations are. And if you're going to use them for services, I think you need to be engaged.
You can't just like we said, set this and forget this. And I think, you know, Mike, we go to it. Mike, Brenda and I, we go to CPA societies and Mike will speak and we'll interact with people. We have longstanding relationships at this point and talking to those CPAs at those state societies really there, they can be good at a few states at a time.
You know, it's really hard for them to be an expert and to take a course at a software company and be an expert across the board. So just wanted to reemphasize, you know, you're, the accounting professionals are brilliant. CPAs are brilliant. They have, they know a lot. It is really hard to know a lot past a few states when it comes to sales tax.
Yeah, absolutely. You know, when we speak to foreign clients, they're amazed. They, it's like each state is its own little country.
[00:19:00] So, I, I think that's a great analogy here. So, you know, accountants have to know so much, about, you know, what their primary services that they offer are, to all of a sudden have to be a multi state tax expert.
It's a big, big burden. So if someone's had a SALT department, state and local tax department, for a number of years, that's a whole different story. We're talking about the, the smaller firms that are just now getting in to state and local taxes and a lot of these companies know, what they don't know.
And they asked to partner with, subject matter experts like ourselves, but a lot of them try to go it on their own and we just have to be aware, you know, as consumers out there, who we are working with. So, I want to thank, you, Brenda, for joining us today. This is a little bit of a different, you know, format, want to, see, if people enjoy this,
[00:20:00] if, if they like hearing the different viewpoints, and if we should do more of these on a going forward basis.
So, any last words, Ellie or, or Brenda? Thank you, Ellie. Thank you, Mike, for having me. I really enjoyed being with you today. Yeah, absolutely. I'll, I'll close it out with our little spiel here, Mike. So again, if you like this podcast, please like and subscribe. It's a real, it's a really important way to support us here.
And if you have sales tax needs, we offer many solutions and services. We'd love to work with you. We'd love to hear from you. You can reach out to me directly at E Moffat at sales tax and more that's E M O F F A T at sales tax and more. com. And, you can reach out to us on our website as well. Sales tax and more. com. And thank you again for joining us today. Thank you everyone. And, hope to see you on the next episode of the Sales Tax and More podcast. Bye bye.